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2009.12.07

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Just kiss him already you fool!

I don't want to sound all like a pretentious jerk guy, but I kinda think you missed the point of Sweet Tooth. It's slow because that's how Lemire writes - his work is full of open, empty moments to reflect what it's like being out in the country by yourself.

I dunno, it's a series I wanted very badly not to like because I don't want to buy serialized floppies anymore. But I like it, so now I'm screwed.

Wow, you guys really hit the point on the head with superhero comics. The reason why I only like reading superhero comics like Millar or Loeb's Hulk (or Silver Age stuff) is because it's just big, loud, empty action with no concern with the world around it. There's no concern for continuity or how this action affects that action - it's just punch, punch, explode, punch some more. Because you guys are right, the normal people living in these worlds don't matter - their lives would be such Hell the only escape would be suicide.

I had the same thought watching Transformers 2 - how could anyone live in this world? If you knew at any second giant robots from space could crush your entire city, how would that affect your religion, your political views, your views on having kids, etc?

I think the only guy who has ever explored this has been Alan Moore. In Miracleman, he has the big blow-off fight between Miracleman and the big bad guy and the world literally turns into Hell. And the result is the whole world actually does change and Miracleman becomes God. And then Gaiman takes over and explores why a human being can't be God....

The point is, that's the only book that's actually looked at this stuff in a real context, which is why I have such a hard time taking Morrison seriously. All Morrison's work reads like Millar if Millar had his head up his ass. As it is, Millar is a carny who knows he's a carny, but Morrison strikes me as a carny who thinks he's this awesome literary giant. (I dunno, this whole anti-Morrison screed may just be me on a soapbox and a cardboard sign yelling, "Wake up! The world already ended and Millar knows this!" In fact, I'm sure of it. Whatever, I'm an idiot....)

I like how this relates to the new Splash page from Nevett and Callahan: http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2009/12/splash-page-are-mainstream-comics.html

There's just this air of "Okay... now why should I care?" about comics lately.

One of the thing that baffled / baffles me about Final Crisis was that they didn't end the book with some kind of magic reset button, all that shit where Darkseid conquered the Earth is still "real" as far as the everyday denizens of the DC Earth are concerned. Which would, as everyone has said, really fuck with the world. Look at how weird the world got after one successful terrorist attack on the United States: just imagine what our world would be like if we had been conquered by an omnipotent alien fascist who turned the planet into a concentration camp for a couple months.

At least Starlin had the good sense to turn back the clock at the end of the Infinity Gauntlet, because as malleable as the Marvel Universe is, having everyone on the face of the planet remember the time when half the population disappeared and the Earth almost fell into the sun before it was conquered by Annihilus would kind of fuck with society.

Yeah, but this Tucker/Jog BS doesn't even contain any graphs. Slackers.

Kenny: IF Millar had his head up his ass? I don't think there's an "if" there. Oh, I'm so funny.

David: Superhero comics, not just plain old "comics"! You should be more specific. There's plenty to care about with other stuff, isn't there? Pluto! Parker! Polyp! Tons of great stuff out there, so just because the X-Men and Green Lantern suck, don't throw the whole medium under the bus!

Polyp? We aren't talking medical science here, Brady! We're talking about tights and fights! What kinda comic doesn't even have any tig ol bitties and spandex in it? Not one I wanna read!

2010 is starting off right with Afrodisiac, though. That's a goodun.

The Comics As Movies bit was Gold, I say!

I think I missed the point of "the super hero comics would be better if they acknowledged the ordinary people in the world" bit. I don't wish to sound harsh but someone (just as an example)who can't even rise to the daunting challenge of writing about someone who gets big and green and hits things when angered, that someone is someone I don't think is going to reveal any raw human truths by examining the plight of normals in a world gone super.
I missed the point again didn't I? And in public yet. Sigh.

Also: Final Crisis Roolz! Secret Invasion droolz! It's true because it rhymes!

Millar has his head up his ass. He's just not as good as Morrison.

Morrison, on the other hand, is a total loon who thinks he once healed his cat with a magic spell.

If you've ever read a Morrison interview, or the blog entries he used to have up at his web site... he really believes all the weird stuff he says about everybody becoming god-like beings some day and using superheroes for sympathetic magic rituals and crap like that.

He thinks he has talked to Superman (the fictional character) before using his magic powers.

It's like he read The Illuminatus Trilogy by Shea and Wilson and decided to take it seriously and turn it into his own personal religion. Which explains The Invisibles and a lot of other stuff he has done where he basically ripped off the ending from Illuminatus!, only with superheroes instead of pagans who use drugs.

Morrison really believes that there will be some kind of apocalypse that will turn us into god-like energy beings like you might see in an old Star Trek episode.

Final Crisis is basically where his love for old Jack Kirby comics and his crazy personal religion intersect. He didn't care about what it would do to the ongoing shared universe just as long as he got to see some of his pet obsessions get published.

Friends don't let friends support the career of a crazy guy who thinks he's a wizard.

Brian T: And that's why Grant Morrison writes crackerjack comics. And Wizards? Alan Moore. Thinking you're a wizard works out okay sometimes.

Generally though isn't Mark Millar obsolete now. Big dumb comics? Jason Aaron does them with aplomb. Go Jason Aaron!

OK, so Millar's ass? His head is squarely up it. I'm not denying that, I just enjoy his superhero comics because it's not his religion on paper, it's dinosaur Venom, it's blind Hawkeye and Wolverine in the Spider-Buggy. Maybe this makes me a bad person?

But when I said Morrison has his head up his ass - Brian T gets it exactly. Morrison actually believes all this goofy stuff. And yep, he stole it from the Illuminatus Trilogy. Millar knows his stuff is some basically pro-wrestling, but it's his job to hype it like Jim Ross. Morrison thinks his pro-wrestling stuff is actually the Bible and Koran rolled up in an I Ching burrito with Torah sauce drizzled on top. I like my pro-wrestling hype-men more Jim Ross and less Jim Jones.

And now Kenny and Brian kiss. KISS HIM! KISS HIM OR REGRET IT FOREVER!

As someone who likes Mr. Bungle, I have to say that I'll take the genius ravings of an utter lunatic over a bunch of generic hoo-ha that recognizes what it is.

I like Millar too, though.

Wow... It really shows that I needed to read over my post one more time before I submitted it. Sorry about the redundant parts.

Anyway, on to new stuff...

Alan Moore, oddly enough, manages to seem like a pretty sensible guy when he isn't writing porn. Even though he'll freely admit that he worships an ancient Roman sock puppet.

Moore gets the difference between reality and fiction. Morrison doesn't seem capable of making those types of distinctions.

Moore is mildly eccentric in a way that makes him seem interesting, and he's incredibly well read.

Morrison... is a nutcase who wants people to think he's really clever and postmodern. And he never shuts up about how brilliant he is. Even though all he really ever does is try to pass off Robert Anton Wilson's ideas as his own and hope American comic book fans don't notice.

By contrast, Moore is awfully humble considering all the cool stuff he has written. And he actually has an original idea once in a while.

I know which wizard I prefer.

Robert Anton Wilson wrote Batman? I really want that comic...

You know, many celebrities have a public persona that is much different than how they really are, even obscure pseudo-celebrities. I don't know why you believe that Grant Morrison 100% believes everything he says... axe to grind?

Steve Ditko wants you to die alone and penniless, the dude still drew some awesome Mr. A comics. Bowie broke up the Spiders from Mars because he thought Scientologists and dark witches were trying to kill him. Peckinpah drank himself to death. Creative people are fucked up and that has dick to do with their work, Brian. You wanna complain about the writing, do it, don't couch it in your "oh he's crazy" bullshit.

Eh, I just think the Morrison wizard stuff is funny; it doesn't really impact the comics all that much (although I haven't read much of the Invisibles), and his stuff is probably better if you just ignore his hype. What he is is a damn good storyteller, pulling off hilarious dialogue, great action, and crazy concepts; when he's doing superheroes well, it makes you realize how badly most everybody else does it. It helps when he has a good artist, but even the badly-illustrated stuff has pretty good content underneath the ugliness. I'll be rereading Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Seven Soldiers, All-Star Superman, New X-Men, and so on for years to come, and that's not even counting the non-superhero stuff like WE3 or, I dunno, The Filth. He's awesome and always interesting, which is more than I can say for Millar, that's for sure.

Also, Alan Moore says he worships a Roman sock puppet as a commentary on religion.

I think Morrison's writing totally sucks.

I thought that before I found out that he spends his spare time making superhero Tarot decks and doing things like talking like a Bizarro for a month or dropping acid before writing an issue of Animal Man.

Moore, a real writer, doesn't need to do weird "method acting" stuff to come up with scripts for superhero comics.

The screwed up stuff Morrison does in real life (such as drunk dialing Mark Millar so they can talk about the X-Men and then publish a transcription of the conversation) just makes him seem like a bigger hack than I thought he was already.

I know some people think criticizing Morrison is like peeing in church... but seriously. Dude. Get over yourself, Witzke.

Hey, it's like a regular Comics of the Weak...BUT ON ACID!

How about Moore vs Morrison being the most boring fucking thing you can talk about, and you going about it in such a fantastic manner? Wah wah I don't like Morrison and I'm the only one. You and half of DC's fanbase, shithead. No one cares, you can make the point again now. Maybe this time you can mention some other thing Morrison does that's not his writing and then say "Alan Moore would never do that".

I dunno, Sean -- once, I walked past Grant Morrison in the Virgin Megastore on Buchanan Street, and I can't be sure, but I think he was PLAYING AIR GUITAR at his mildly disinterested wife. OH THE CRAZINESS!!!!

Say what you will about Glycon, but I'm pretty sure that Alan Moore would never do something like that. He'd probably play air dulcimer or something instead.

All of this is totally relevant!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOpx61okWTk

The best story Morrison ever wrote, Flex Mentallo, is probably his least-read work. There's great beauty in that.

Instead Brian, Moore's gotta do some enchanting in his magic cave. Dude is fucking secretly Dallben the wizard, and we're all Taran.

I'll try again, even though Witzke has resorted to name calling like he's six.

When Morrison isn't ripping off Robert Anton Wilson, he steals a lot from stuff Jack Kirby and Chris Claremont wrote back in the Seventies.

The dude has never had an original thought in his life.

Chances are fair that everything you liked about his JLA run came either from The Illuminati Trilogy or old X-Men comics.

The Invisibles? That's just The Illuminati Trilogy with some Michael Moorcock thrown in for flavor. It probably seems more clever if you've never read any Wilson or any of Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius books.

New X-Men? "Reimagining" old Claremont ideas with some Illuminati Trilogy thrown in because that's Morrison thing for some reason

Seven Soldiers? That's The Illuminati Trilogy crossed with Jack Kirby. He even stole names for characters from Shea and Wilson.

You can tell which parts Morrison wrote in 52 because they're the ones based on scenes from The Illuminati Trilogy. I was able to correctly predict things that happened in 52 just because I've read those books too.

Final Crisis? Again, it's Jack Kirby crossed with stuff from The Illuminati Trilogy that he hadn't used for Seven Soldiers.

It's not hard to seem like a genius when other people have already done all the heavy lifting for you.

Just look at Geoff Johns. He somehow turned ripping off Roy Thomas and Marv Wolfman into a career. He broadened his horizons a little and started stealing from Alan Moore too. But he hasn't done anything with any real merit since Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. Which is the last time he ever tried to come up with his own ideas.

Morrison is creatively bankrupt. Trying to claim that his detractors just aren't smart or cool enough (or European enough, in some cases) to get him doesn't change that.

Also, Witzke... Seriously, how old are you? Twelve?

I read an interview in Wizard where Johns and Morrison kept talkin about how much they love each other's work

anyways in it Morrison says that Flex Mentallo sold horribly and he actually has CASES of it at home

Sampling and remixing ideas are a mainstay in art.

especially in a genre that builds from previous creator's ideas. That's not exactly stealing, that's following editorial edict.

When I was younger, I thought Kirby was clunky & the first time I read Wilson I thought it was dull.

Brian: Beyond what Seth just said, I think it's also that people are tired of others trying to make them feel bad about what authors they like, etc.

Although the irony of that sentiment on this blog is hilarious.

Simply put, I like Led Zepplin guitar riffs better in Beastie Boys songs.

other people like Howlin' Wolf songs more when Led Zepplin does them.

merely listing an artist's influences & calling them a thief doesn't make people enjoy the originals any more.

it makes you into a pedant.

now who wants to see my Kirby-esque drawing of Jog & Tucker bumping dicks?

Also Morrison has never tried to hide this stuff. Look at the Invisibles. Gideon Stargrave is pretty much Grant Morrison-as-Jerry Cornelius.

Also, Morrison has never tried to hide these things you're complaining about, Brian. He's always been pretty open about the fact that, say, Gideon Stargrave is just his Jerry Cornelius fantasies put to paper.

I agree that people shouldn't act like his shit don't stink, but that kind of fawning is sadly not unique to any creative personality.

I am twelve years old and I want to see Seth's drawings of said dick bumbping.

I read a book once by Robert Anton Wilson, did you hear? It is a book that is better than Grant Morrison's books. I can prove it to you with math, see? VALIDATE ME BECAUSE I AM SMARTER THAN GRANT MORRISON BUT NOT ALAN MOORE.

I sometimes dream of Alan Moore inside me. His dick is hairy. (that last bit was me talking)

Me too. Make sure you detail the veins right.

I also regret this silly hissy fit bitchslap fight overshadowing people wanking Tucker and Jog off about what a great post this was, since it really was a great post. Also I regret my browser crashing leading me to think I hadn't posted before.

The Illuminatus! Trilogy struck me as being just an endless permutations of 'have you ever gone to the post office? On WEED!?' and is about as relevant to today as The Invisibles will be to about five or ten years from now.

Although I think The Invisibles was a much better story overall.

I like that Grant Morrison fella. He's pretty good most of the time and sometimes he's really very good indeed. But I like Alan Moore the bestest of all. Or I did, now I know he has a hairy dick I'm having reservations. I know, I know, the furriness of a man's tinklestick has no relevance to the worth of his Art. Call me shallow, I guess.

I like how the Mark Millar thing goes:
Mark Millar Hataz: His Comics Are Stupid.
Mark Millar Fanz: His Comics Are Stupid.
And yet still we fight! Brothers and Sisters can't you see!? You bake The Cake of Life in the oven of Love - not Hate!
I'm a Hata myself (or at least a Totally Disinterested).

Pretty crazy this week, huh. Bit of a free for all. Blimey O'Reilly, it certainly cleared my sinuses.

"I was able to correctly predict things that happened in 52 just because I've read those books too."

Oh ho ho

What's going to happen in Batman then? I'd love to be saved arsing about reading more 2nd rate RAW by a big brave lad who's not afraid to wee in the aisles.

For a book you refer to a lot The Illuminatus Trilogy sure has a different name. And is not very good, from really any literary standpoint.

...yeah, this was a really good post. Mr. J-Mac, Mr TS; respect.

This comments section has too much hate and not enough dude on dude make-outs. That makes Alan Moore cry. Cry tears of blackest night and secrets...

http://guysgocrazyblog.com/i/2008/05/148_guys_go_crazy_gay_orgy.jpg

I never said The Illuminatus Trilogy was any good. if anything, that just makes it worse that Morrison has spent half his career recycling whole scenes from it for bad superhero stories.

And I'd rather be a pedant than some dumb ass doing a bad Tucker Stone impression.

"I read an interview in Wizard where Johns and Morrison kept talkin about how much they love each other's work..."

Grant Morrison: Yeah, sometimes I get lazy and just steal the plot from an old comic I liked and update the pop culture references.

Geoff Johns: Me too! That's what I did for half my Titans run!

GM: Writing is hard, you know? It's so much easier to just make a lot of references to cool old stuff and wait for the fanboys to love you because they like those comics too.

GJ: Tell me about it. I figured that out while writing JSA. That's all I've been doing since about 2003.

GM: What was that waiter's name?

Both: JEAN-LUC!!!

If you think the impression is bad you should try reading the original.

" It's a world that goes on, but it constantly diminishes the human who isn't a godlike being, and there's a lot of existential troubles in that."

That's not a problem with contemporary super-hero comics. That's the genre. And I don't think it's an existential problem so much as a theological one. That is, the difficulty isn't that it diminishes human beings, but that it diminishes god.

i'm all pissed off and shit rrr i'm on a blog and cool

@O'Neal: I'm sorry, but those don't look like comics geeks at all. Not even scrawny ones like Tucker. Now Alan Moore owns your soul. Also Brian's. But he'll be trading Brian's soul to Grant Morrison for a case of Scotch and a purple druid robe. IRONY!

"If you think the impression is bad you should try reading the original."

I apologize. I was alluding to Sean Witzke.

Brian T is right about everything. Damn it.

Brian, mate, if this whole Illuminati/Illuminatus thing is a joke, I admire your commitment if not your punchlines. Though, yes, the whole "I could predict parts of 52" thing was pretty good.

Seriously, I feel like I'm in The Prestige right now, and I'm staring at some old codger, and some other old codger's all like "Don't you see? His whole life is the act!"

If you're for real -- eh, who can be bothered defending Grant Morrison on the Internet anymore? Especially when this little corner of the web is rarely shy about slagging off his lesser efforts. For, you know, better reasons normally.

So... did someone call for dude-on-dude makeouts?

I'm game! Tucker's a cutey, but I think he's too busy chatting up Jog to pay any attention to a schlub like me. Still, when the results are as good as this post, I won't complain too much.

Well, in public at least.

I've also got a longstanding (!) man-crush on Duncan, and I'd pay good money to have Sean talk me off, but...

Yeah, I'll get my coat now.

Sorry.

Morrison has always run hot and cold with me. The Invisibles is absolute shit, and Kill Your Boyfriend is possibly the single worst comic book I've ever read in my life. But Seaguy is wonderful, and The Filth is really great, and All-Star Superman is probably the best Superman story to come out in decades. In the middle you have stuff like Seven Soldiers, which has some good parts and some really weak parts and a pretty lame ending, and Doom Patrol, which has some theoretically interesting stories going on bogged down by some really terrible dialogue and writing. And then you have everything he's been doing recently, which is just mediocre page-filler stuff.

Morrison's public persona is just embarrassing. I tend to avoid interviews with him these days.


Brian T is correct.

Morrison does steal every idea of his from the Illuminatus Trilogy! I know you slobbering fanboys want to deny it, but it's true! Face it!

But that's only skimming the plagiarism surface!

Did you people know that Alan Moore steals all of his ideas from the novel Superfolks? Yes, he does!

And the Bible! Did you know every idea in the Bible was stolen from Gilgamesh? Yeah, sad, isn't it?

But it doesn't even end there! What about Gilgamesh? You think that was original? No way! Every idea in it was stolen from the works of the 'Caveman Who Invented Fiction'. Every idea!!!

And do you know where the 'Caveman Who Invented Fiction' got all his 'ideas'? Do you? Do You!!!? I'll tell you. He stole them all from the 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction'!! Every *Damn* One of Them!! Can you Believe that?!! The Fucker!

This is all shocking, I know. I was shocked the first time I learned about it. It probably will make you despair about the entire concept of 'Creativity'.

Anyhow, I hope some day the complete works of the 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction' will be translated from their native dinosaurese into humanese so all these fanboys that worship and slobber over overrated talentedless hacks like Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Leo Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Homer, and the 'Caveman Who Invented Fiction' can finally understand how totally misguided they were. And then when they reach true enlightenment then they can start worshipping and slobbering over the only artist that this pitiful planet of ours has ever produced that was worth a damn!

Namely, The 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction'.

Amen!

And before someone calls me out on it, yes, I did in fact steal all of the text from this post from the 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction' masterpiece epic poem, 'Dino-Might! Dino-Night!'.

I have no shame.

Arthur "Sue me" Spitzer

Arthur - Very, very nice.

It gives me a blissful, happy, joy-to-the-world feeling in the pit of my stomach that this guy is arguing that Grant Morrison can't tell fiction from reality and that his WHOLE ARGUMENT is "I can't tell fiction from reality."

Let me guess. You're all East Coast hipsters, right?

"As a hipster, I really hate it when people are serious about their religious beliefs. But I still like Morrison. So, it will make me feel better if I live in denial and pretend like all the crazy stuff Morrison says constantly on his web site and in interviews is just an elaborate act.

"And, because I'm a massive douchebag in an ironic T-shirt, I'm going to pretend like he doesn't use those same goofy ideas in practically everything he writes. Even though Warren Ellis and anybody else with any sense have already noticed that he keeps slipping stuff from The Invisibles (which was based on his funky beliefs) into his mainstream superhero work. Now let me get back to quoting Patton Oswalt on message boards and pretending that I can relate to gangsta rap."

I'm a Midwest hipster (although one who isn't very fashionable, yet still probably quite douchebaggy), so I think I've just ruined your theory.

"Now let me get back to quoting Patton Oswalt on message boards and pretending that I can relate to gangsta rap."

Is this still part of being a hipster?

West Coast hipster, representing! And I don't do either of those things, I talk about The Hold Steady and Goya paintings.

East Coast Hipster?

*blink blink*

Brian T you're actually Tucker just fucking with us aren't you? Seriously this is like when he does one of those style parody review columns now...

Over here the East Coast conjures up images of candyfloss in the rain and watching donkeys sadly amble about beaches sparsely furnished with luridly pink people. That's not the same thing is it? Or is it?

"...Warren Ellis and anybody else with any sense have already noticed that he keeps slipping stuff from The Invisibles (which was based on his funky beliefs) into his mainstream superhero work."

Even the alleged clueless buffoon Grant Morrison has noticed this and mentioned it several times in interviews; how his JLA stuff acts as a mainstream approach to the same business in The Invisibles. It's almost as if he's self-aware or something! Good on Warren Ellis for calling him out though! Good on Warren Ellis! "In the future cars will not have wheels! And be a bit faster!", the smoking sweary lady stated flatly. Good on him!

Dammit, it was Tucker Stone all along wasn't it. Choke! Sob!

Actually, I'm a no-coast Jew, and I'm mostly responding to your condescending fakeposting, SIRRAH.

"You are not agreeing with me so you must be part of this group of people I have identified that I do not like"

Internet sigh.

It's a courtesy to attribute the person you are quoting.

/jizz

I didn't call Morrison a clueless buffoon. I called him an overrated hack. Who thinks he can do magic.

There's no need to infer things that aren't there.

Yes, I'm a real person. No, I'm not Tucker.

I'm totally serious. So, I'd appreciate it if you stopped coming up with weird, douchey hipster-y theories about what my true motives are.

And if you think hipsters don't still quote Patton Oswalt, you clearly don't spend enough time checking out the Onion A.V. Club.

wait so we're the hipsters and you're telling us to read the AV Club?

Tucker Stone isn't a real person?

I KNEW IT!

He's a sex-bot Nina built isn't he?

Aaaaaaand ... that's a wrap. Good comments section, everybody!

http://lh3.google.com/lisa.onizuka/R9vwdFsPcKI/AAAAAAAAPdY/TLfA_QdWHyk/tiresome.jpg

I'd say Serial Experiment Lain is far superior to anything ever done by Morrison in its treatment of very similar subjects. Anyone else see the similarities?

I still enjoy Morrison comics more than Lain (it's not exactly a fun series). But Lain seems both more mature in dealing with philosophical issues and more modern - Morrison sometimes feels like he's overly tied to the counter-culture of the 60ies and 70ies. That's a long time ago.

If Morrison did "channel-surfing" in 2008 Lain did the Internet in 1998.

Yeah, not a totally fair comparison perhaps, but I think Morrison needs to evolve (like in JLA: World War III!) if he’s to stay artistically relevant. He should, I don’t know, update his thematic sources? Something like that?

Wow, the Acomment guy just TOTALLY LOST ME. Totally.

For a minute I thought he said he enjoyed Morrison comics more when they were in Latin.

Well, I do too...but then that's what makes me a hipster I guess.

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