The Factual Opinion: Could we start off by you giving me some of your experience with comic books?
Paul Schlader: I don't have a lot of experience with comic books. I just got into them over the course of the last two years out of wanting to relate to friends on a deeper level. I thought this would be a good medium to delve into.
TFO: So it's kind of a reaching out thing?
Schlader: Sure.
TFO: So it's "service."
Schlader: Yep. A service to my friends.
TFO: Is service something that's important to you?
Schlader: Yes. I would say it's a priority in my life.
TFO: I know that you were loaned that copy of Watchmen--I don't remember why. Or when.
Schlader: It was well over a year ago. It was loaned to me, and I was told "You need to read this book. This is going to change your life."
TFO: I can't believe somebody said that. That doesn't sound like something that a real person would say.
Schlader: It might not have been that. I think it was close to that.
TFO: Wait, seriously? Somebody said that?
Schlader: Well, out of all the books...
TFO: Oh, you mean out of all the comics. The super-hero stuff.
Schlader: Yeah, out of comics.
TFO: Okay, that makes sense then. I can see somebody saying that. So you had it for a year. What sparked the impetus to read it after all that time?
TFO: And that was pretty recent right? You'd mentioned it two weeks ago.
Schlader: Yes, last week I mentioned it. Because I finished it.
TFO: So now you're looking forward to the film version?
Schlader: Not at all. There's no chance that I'm looking forward to the film.
TFO: Are you not a Zach Snyder fan?
Schlader: Yeah. 300 was a great film. It was...no.
TFO: You have no love for Dawn of the Dead either?
Schlader: No. I've not seen Dawn of the Dead.
TFO: Have you seen the original Dawn of the Dead?
Schlader: I need to.
TFO: Snyder's Dawn of the Dead isn't awful for what it is. It's basically an action movie. You get to see a lot of people die, that's nice.
Schalder: I can see a lot of people die.
TFO: Yeah, it's short too. There's not a lot of slow motion, I went to high school with one of the actors in it...
TFO: I can't remember. I don't think there is. So you're not looking forward to the movie. Alright, so what'd you think of Watchmen the comic book?
Schlader: It's the best comic I've ever read.
TFO: Which is, admittedly, not a lot. What have you read? Captain Britain? No, you read Union Jack.
Schlader: Fuck you. Yeah, I read Union Jack.
TFO: By Christos Gage.
Schlader: Fuck you! I read some Civil War too.
TFO: Really? How?
Schlader: You gave it to me. You said "you should read this."
TFO: No I didn't. I don't even have copies of Civil War.
Schlader: You gave me something with Captain America.
Schlader: No! Dude, what the fuck?
TFO: Seriously, I didn't give you Civil War.
Schlader: It may not have been Civil War. But it was Captain America before he died.
TFO: Then it was probably Captain America. [Further research into this disagreement revealed that Paul Schlader was thinking about Union Jack, and did not remember what Union Jack was. He did not read Captain America or Civil War.]
Schlader: Yeah, and I read Punisher MAX. Which was fucking great. I can't recall...
TFO: So you're saying that Watchmen is better then Union Jack and Punisher MAX?
Schalder: Look. What the fuck is with you and Union Jack?
TFO: I don't even remember why I loaned you Union Jack.
Schlader: I don't know WHAT THE HELL THAT IS.
TFO: Calm down. It was the one with the little British guy, and he has a little British flag on his chest.
Schlader: Ohhhhh. Maybe as a joke? It must have been a joke.
TFO: He had a funny accent. Well, it was Cockney. So I guess it's just an accent. Not really funny.
Schalder: I don't remember it that well, obviously.
Schlader: Ah, yes. Boobs Pooter.
TFO: So you're saying Watchmen is better then Boobs Pooter? Because I think that Boobs Pooter is probably better then Watchmen. I mean, Watchmen might be more "serious."
Schlader: Well, it's definitely serious. There's some levity in the book. But the tone is...the tone is no joke. And, considering it's written after the fucking Cold War. It goes pretty deep, as far as I'm concerned. One of the things that I didn't quite understand was the timeline, because, if I'm understanding it correctly, has Nixon as the President at a later time then he was.
TFO: He stayed President.
Schlader: Yeah. I wasn't sure if that was supposed to give me a different outlook? Like "You could have had it this way." Or...what? What was that trying to convey with that aspect? At times, that sort of thing got me a little lost. Like, was Watchmen trying to convey a type of reality, or just playing pure fantasy?
TFO: Is it just a setting, or does it have ulterior meaning. Is that what you're asking?
Schlader: Yes. Anyway, the character of Rorshach is my favorite.
TFO: He is to most people.
Schlader: He's the most honest. I like, particularly at the end, how he was screaming at John to "Just do it." That was real visceral.
TFO: Visceral honesty in a book with a lot of people who are playing games--whether they understand themselves or not, whether they know it or not.
Schlader: Yes. I really enjoyed it.
TFO: Was it what you expected?
Schlader: Not at all.
TFO: One joke that comes up, something I think is kind of funny that keeps coming up because Watchmen has been selling really well--something like 43,000 copies recently.
Schalder: Because of the trailer?
TFO: Yes, because of the trailer. For a book that came out twenty years ago, to sell like that in a market where you're lucky to sell 43,000 copies of a single comic book...a really "great" sales figure for a comic is 120,000. That's "amazing." That's top of the pile. And the joke is, with Watchmen selling like that, is "where do you go after Watchmen?" If somebody likes this, what do you give them to read next?
Schlader: Nothing? Is that right?
TFO: Well, there's not a lot. It's not that everything sucks, but this construction, the care that's been put in--that does makes it somewhat unique. The problem is that you also have to ask--"Why did you enjoy this?" Because it was a comic? Because it was well made? Because it was "deep" and "involving?" Did you like it because it's super-heroes?
Schlader: The fact that it was super-heroes was secondary, for me. I thought it was--with the exception of John--that it was just the standard "people in extraordinary circumstances." That resonated with me, particularly with the Silk Spectre character. Her relationship with her mom, the training she went through as a little girl, this rigorous treatment from her mother--it was that kind of pageant mother type of character. That was just translated into "super-hero." Because none of them have those, what you call "super-hero powers" except John.
TFO: Does the fact that it's a "Winner of a Hugo Award" have any meaning to you?
Schlader: Meaningless. That means nothing to me.
TFO: I don't even know what a Hugo is. Why do you think you came away saying "This isn't what I expected?" What did you go into this with? You'd seen the trailer...
Schlader: Well, keep in my mind that I'd read a quarter of it before, and then I stopped.
TFO: Wait, so you'd made it a quarter of the way in and then went "Eh." Just quit?
Schlader: Yes. I guess it was just the monologue, the long backstory parts--none of that hit me at the moment. When I picked it up again, I realized what I should've picked up on the first time, that you needed those. Those backstories were what drove the rest of the book, being able to pick up on the nuances of the particular characters. I didn't expect this kind of profound writing in a comic. I haven't found it, for me, yet. There's probably other books, but I haven't put forth the effort to find out what those are. Certainly, in conversations that I've had about comics, it sounds like there's other layers to this stuff. And what are they, like twenty pages? The fact that there can be such graphic writing, captivating images--that opened my eyes. I didn't know that existed.
TFO: Now that you're eyes are open, you can just close them again.
Schlader: Yeah, fuck it.
TFO: Read some Gasoline Alley reprints from the 20's, and you're pretty good.
Schlader: I think that it's a shame that Watchmen is being made into a film by Zach Snyder. There is no chance that he could possibly encapsulate the beauty of this book. I think he's going to make it into a super-hero film. And he's going to make it with slow-motion. And it's going to be bloody, and dirty, and gritty looking. I can't imagine it will be something that any fan of the book would appreciate. It won't be true. It'll just be spectacle. Which is unfortunate.
-Paul Schlader, 2008
Schlader: Yeah. I wasn't sure if that was supposed to give me a different outlook? Like "You could have had it this way." Or...what? What was that trying to convey with that aspect? At times, that sort of thing got me a little lost. Like, was Watchmen trying to convey a type of reality, or just playing pure fantasy?
TFO: Is it just a setting, or does it have ulterior meaning. Is that what you're asking?
Schlader: Yes. Anyway, the character of Rorshach is my favorite.
TFO: He is to most people.
Schlader: He's the most honest. I like, particularly at the end, how he was screaming at John to "Just do it." That was real visceral.
TFO: Visceral honesty in a book with a lot of people who are playing games--whether they understand themselves or not, whether they know it or not.
Schlader: Yes. I really enjoyed it.
TFO: Was it what you expected?
Schlader: Not at all.
TFO: One joke that comes up, something I think is kind of funny that keeps coming up because Watchmen has been selling really well--something like 43,000 copies recently.
Schalder: Because of the trailer?
TFO: Yes, because of the trailer. For a book that came out twenty years ago, to sell like that in a market where you're lucky to sell 43,000 copies of a single comic book...a really "great" sales figure for a comic is 120,000. That's "amazing." That's top of the pile. And the joke is, with Watchmen selling like that, is "where do you go after Watchmen?" If somebody likes this, what do you give them to read next?
Schlader: Nothing? Is that right?
TFO: Well, there's not a lot. It's not that everything sucks, but this construction, the care that's been put in--that does makes it somewhat unique. The problem is that you also have to ask--"Why did you enjoy this?" Because it was a comic? Because it was well made? Because it was "deep" and "involving?" Did you like it because it's super-heroes?
TFO: Does the fact that it's a "Winner of a Hugo Award" have any meaning to you?
Schlader: Meaningless. That means nothing to me.
TFO: I don't even know what a Hugo is. Why do you think you came away saying "This isn't what I expected?" What did you go into this with? You'd seen the trailer...
Schlader: Well, keep in my mind that I'd read a quarter of it before, and then I stopped.
TFO: Wait, so you'd made it a quarter of the way in and then went "Eh." Just quit?
Schlader: Yes. I guess it was just the monologue, the long backstory parts--none of that hit me at the moment. When I picked it up again, I realized what I should've picked up on the first time, that you needed those. Those backstories were what drove the rest of the book, being able to pick up on the nuances of the particular characters. I didn't expect this kind of profound writing in a comic. I haven't found it, for me, yet. There's probably other books, but I haven't put forth the effort to find out what those are. Certainly, in conversations that I've had about comics, it sounds like there's other layers to this stuff. And what are they, like twenty pages? The fact that there can be such graphic writing, captivating images--that opened my eyes. I didn't know that existed.
TFO: Now that you're eyes are open, you can just close them again.
Schlader: Yeah, fuck it.
TFO: Read some Gasoline Alley reprints from the 20's, and you're pretty good.
Schlader: I think that it's a shame that Watchmen is being made into a film by Zach Snyder. There is no chance that he could possibly encapsulate the beauty of this book. I think he's going to make it into a super-hero film. And he's going to make it with slow-motion. And it's going to be bloody, and dirty, and gritty looking. I can't imagine it will be something that any fan of the book would appreciate. It won't be true. It'll just be spectacle. Which is unfortunate.
-Paul Schlader, 2008
The HUGO is the top award in Science Fiction (given out at the World Science Fiction Convention, I believe). I feel like it used to have a lot more significance when there was a larger pool of talented writers working in SF. These days...sort of a waning genre in print.
I'm not sure what category Watchmen won in - if it was considered Best Novel or if there was a different...ok, I went and checked it out (http://www.thehugoawards.org/) and it was in "Other Forms", in which it beat out two Harlan Ellison books? And Harlan's won 8 1/2 Hugos - the Hugos love Harlan - so that's surprising. Maybe Harlan's two books split the vote...
Oh, hey, this year's winner for best novel was Chabon's "Yiddish Policemen's Union" which...hey, that's a good pick. Maybe all is not lost for the Hugos.
Posted by: Jason Michelitch | 2008.09.25 at 06:07
Tucker, I think us regular readers know there's no chance in Hell of you giving someone a Mark Millar comic to read. What was a surprise to me is you can't keep Captain America straight from Union Jack. What the Hell is your problem with the Brits? Suck balls, Stone!
Posted by: Kenny | 2008.09.25 at 09:36
Hey, I knew for sure that the only thing I'd loaned him was Union Jack. I just didn't want to be a total dick to him during the interview because he couldn't tell the difference. He just kept saying, yeah, the dude with the flag on his chest. I had to go find the goddamn thing and show him the difference. I knew from the start that he was out to lunch.
Posted by: Tucker Stone | 2008.09.25 at 09:40
I never read Union Jack...Never...lets move forward now.
Posted by: Paul | 2008.09.25 at 11:36
Outstanding work on the Stunt Casting. My favorite one thus far, and here's why:
Most comic conversations that I've listened in on go one of two ways - a) did you see how hero x did something fantastic? And then something else fantastic? Yeah? I loved it. Or, b) How did that happen again? Oh, right. Yeah and then didn't hero y do this? No? Jeez, I'm out of it. Serious questions a la TFO deep dives are not addressed for longer than a serious bout of coughing. Yet here, you have THE critical darling of comic books, and the interview consists entirely of a and b above. Nice irony in it. Also, lots of name calling makes for good entertainment. Just ask Andrew Sullivan.
Finally, Tucker, you definitely lent Paul a copy of a comic in which Captain America was fighting and historic battle of some sort - feel like it was WWII. There was some great frame about "Do you think the A stands for France?" Is this perhaps the source of the confusion?
Posted by: From The Desk Of Josh Woodbeck | 2008.09.25 at 17:17
this blog is the best blog
Posted by: hugh stewart | 2008.09.25 at 18:18
Is it just me or does union jack look like a UVF wetdream?
Posted by: Hugo | 2008.09.26 at 00:47