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Nina, is it possible you would have liked Kamandi if it featured an ape firing a bazooka at a dog piloting a blimp?

Because that happened earlier on, and I know I sure enjoyed it.

Wierd. I Concur. I've been reading comics for 40 years (or it feels that way). Except Flash is my favourite, but otherwise...

"it's all wack-a-doodle"

God bless you. That's the exact phrase I was looking for.

"'m sorry if I don't like something you do, and vice versa." Anyone who is legitimately torn to the core that someone doesn't like something they do should probably be shot out of a cannon into the sun, or at the very least exiled to Mars. There's nothing for them here on this planet.

Maybe I'm being too harsh, maybe we should help them back on their way to their home planet, Butthurtnia.

" I kind of hated myself for reading it."

I felt the same way when I picked up an issue and flipped through it. What is the point of this series other than preaching to the choir?

I dunno. Fun? Does it really need to do more than to be fun? Of course, I'm a crazy person who thinks that superhero comics will find their own by being themselves rather than falling ass backwards all over the place trying to convince middle aged housewives that Superman is a fun read.

Yeah, fun. Fun is good. That's why I like it. That and getting to see some artists I really like do something unique, on a large canvas. The excitement is palpable (in most cases). I love Nina's comment about stuff like Superman, which has been pretty awful, or Wonder Woman, which is a bit of a mess, even if it's grown on me to the point that I like it despite its faults. Kamandi: maybe if you (Nina) read some of the earlier installments, you might like it better. This one was all "aftermath of war", so while it's pretty and everything, it's not really as exquisite as some of the other chapters, like the aforementioned bit in which apes riding horses shot down a dog-piloted blimp with a bazooka. Supergirl: facial expressions are kind of the key to this one (see Tucker's comment about the previous chapter). It's all about the cute, with her chasing around her super-dog and super-cat. Fun! But yes, her sitting around watching TV isn't exactly the highlight of the story. Teen Titans: It's okay to not like that one; I think it's the worst thing in there. Just terrible storytelling there, even if the art is halfway decent.

And wow, you liked Green Lantern and didn't like Strange Adventures. I sure do enjoy Paul Pope's comics, so I'm probably biased in favor of the latter, but I've been pretty bored by GL. It looks all right, I suppose, but I keep getting weirded out by his mask, the way the pointy nosepiece extends down over his grimacing mouth.

And that's all the comments I need to comment about your comments, I think. As always, your opinion is welcomed and enjoyed. Keep being awesome, Nina!

Why does Dr. Mid-Nite write labels on the weird shit he keeps in his fridge? He's blind.

George Perez ruled on that Wonder Woman: Yo. What the Fuck? mini series.

that double pager of WW and the Latin Kings painting a mural of all the heroes of the DCU at the community center is amazing.

Batman and Biggie on a see-saw. Batman is always up in the air.

Tucker: Isn't Mid-Nite's thing that he invented goggles that allow him to see? He's a blind guy whose superhero ability is that he can see.

Is that it? I guess that must be it. In that last issue of JSA, I noticed that he used variations on "let me take a look at that" and "let me see it" a few times. What a horrible character.

I guess here's where my problem with the "fun" argument lies - why is fun a defense? Like, if the justification for why Wednesday Comics exists is it's fun, what does that say about the rest of the superhero comics. They're not fun? They're partially fun?

Like - someone like Matt Brady, I understand his angle. Seeing Pope draw a superhero is fun because Pope normally doesn't. But if you're a superhero fan already and you don't have any artist you're jazzed up about seeing, then what is the fun in regards to? Is it the format? Because then it seems like they're selling the sizzle, not the steak. If it's the fun content, then why doesn't DC try making all their superhero books this much fun?

It's a defense because it's a work of entertainment. It doesn't really have to do more than be, well, good. It doesn't need to evangelize about superhero comics.

I agree with what you say - indeed, DC really does need to make all their superhero books this fun, maybe I would read them again - but it's unfair to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It isn't Mark Chiarello's fault that Teen Titans is about superheroes dogfighting or whatever, is it?

Lugh, good point. It's not Chiarello's fault. In fact, hey, at least he personally is doing what he can to make a good product.

Thank you for the back and forth. I guess my final say is Chiarello should be running things since at least he's trying to put out a good product that has some non-superhero appeal.

"If the justification for why Wednesday Comics exists is it's fun, what does that say about the rest of the superhero comics. They're not fun? They're partially fun?"

Yeah, that sounds about right. Not fun, thus I don't read them. Boring, insular shit.

I've kind of avoided the debate about whether Wednesday Comics is bringing in new readers or whether DC is selling the format or whatever, because that sort of thing doesn't really interest me. I just get it because I like it. If it wasn't satisfying, I'd quit, but even though there have been some misses, I feel like I'm getting my money's worth each week.

But yeah, why not make all superhero books actually fun and, well, good? That would be nice. A lot of people were saying that when All-Star Superman finished, that Morrison and Quitely had set a new bar for quality, and why can't others do something like that on a regular basis? It's one of those questions about the philosophy of DC and Marvel's storytelling, with the ever-shrinking audience of people who want complex (as in complicated and reference-heavy) stories that are full of nostalgia. They should get kids to read comics and blah blah blah, right? Eh, if DC and Marvel don't want to bother with that, screw em. Kids love comics, they'll find them elsewhere. And so will I.

Thank you Matthew. What you've said is exactly how I feel. I might be a Marvel and DC fan (more a fan of the creators there now and in the past who I enjoy) but I don't give a shit about how well they're doing, and I don't agree that caring is necessary to being a "true comic fan". They could be publishing out of a tar paper shack for all I care. I dip in and dip out and only read the titles that I enjoy. If they (unlikely) or any other publisher goes out of business I'll just find something else to read.

I've become increasingly uninterested in talking about comic books online and I've come to realize why - it's because EVERYTHING turns into some sort of debate or guilt trip about the future of superhero comics and the industry and how you should feel bad about reading what you feel like no matter what it is instead of what the blogger likes and... and... If you dare read a Geoff Johns comic...!

In real life... The last time I got together with friends specifically to talk about comics we were all "oh my god hulk punched out black bolt in world war hulk" over a case of beers and it was actually FUN. It might not get published in the Comics Journal, but it was fun.

The past several Wonder Woman comics with Gail Simone as writer have been good. It's as Wonder Woman should be, and the stuff over the past few years before Simone has been agreed to be mediocre at best. The last two issues (#34 and #35) are a two-part story that has Wonder Woman team up with Black Canary for an enjoyable romp. Maybe check those out.

Wow, I'm not implying anyone isn't a "true comics fan" or anything. However, I *do* find the business side of things fascinating. I could die a happy man if my fingers never touch another DC or Marvel book, but I still find their business side fascinating. I think talking about the health of the entire comics industry and the financial outlook of all the companies I know of is a lot more fun than talking about pretty much anything else in comics.

Matt's right - kids aren't going to come back to comics. Superhero comics will probably continue to die as the audience grows old and dies. That's why Wednesday Comics fascinates me - DC is trying to reach outside of the traditional trappings of superhero comics with it. Is it succeeding? Is it failing? What lessons can be learned? That's where the discussion is for me.

I'm sorry if I offended you, Lugh. That wasn't the point. I was just talking about the stuff that interests me. I wasn't trying to assault your sensibilities or taste. And no, you should never, ever feel bad for what you enjoy reading (providing it's legal, obviously!). If you enjoy superhero comics, power to you.

No, you didn't offend me at all, I was just venting and expressing a general feeling I've been having lately. I have been enjoying our discussion, actually. What I was getting at is that some people feel that the industry gossip and who's going to die and all that are the main point of interest, or people who seem to hold people's taste against them (which I'm sure is internet hyperbole, a great force for good AND evil)

PS - Kids enjoy superhero comics - I was working at a summer day camp a couple years ago and I was amazed, just about every other kid was reading a Marvel Adventures trade at lunch or at the sleepover night. I was talking to this 12 year old camper and he was talking about how much he liked Iron Man and Captain America and the Hulk and I lent him all my Kurt Busiek Avengers trades and he ate them up. What kids don't want are to pay huge prices for comics (the Marvel Adventures trades are reasonably priced, I think) or to feel like they're being ignored or have to have DEEPLY arcane knowledge to get the basic point of the story. They also don't like a "comics are serious business" attitude. I think there's also a huge marketing problem, too. Comics at libraries do very well.

I think the trick is to balance selling to people like me who are interested in "The Well Written Continuing Adventures of Interesting Man" and kids who want to see something new and get the best old material into dirt cheap collections and make it very clear that you don't need to major in Marvel & DC U. History to understand things. I don't want the shared universe to go away, I just want it to be tightly managed.

Lugh, I'm glad you didn't feel slighted. I mean, yeah, I'll admit it, I'm skewed towards manga and "art comics," but I don't look down on people for liking superhero comics. It's just not my cup of tea, you know?

Anyway, you may be onto something there with the cost thing. I'm starting to wonder if that's the appeal to manga - you get like 8 comics for $8. Art sensibilities change with each generation, and the manga/anime look is in now, but I wonder if superhero comics were cheaper and more widely available if that would change things.

Personal opinion here, but I feel like most superhero comics are too wrapped up in their own continuity. I like Invincible a lot, and one of the nice things is the book is fairly easy to jump into and figure out what's going on. On the other hand, when I tried reading the Sinestro Corps War, I was like - why are all these characters acting like all these other guys are so important? What's this guy's motivation? Who is that guy? Despite all the positive word I heard, I felt very put off because it was difficult figuring out what was going on.

So, yeah, cheaper, more accessible comics with cleaner stories may be the way to go.

Speaking of the shared universe, I like how Kirkman and the manga guys manage a whole universe pretty much in their own books. Like, an entire issue may be all about someone else's adventure. The done-in-one crossover in Invincible #60 is one of my favorite ever comics.

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