This week's installment of talking 'bout comics has been pre-empted by an interview with Joe McCulloch, of Jog The Blog. In the interest of maintaining Sunday's normal focus, this introductory portion is a brief look at some of last week's best-selling direct market super-hero comics, which eventually becomes an odd conversation about super-hero event comics from last year. The upcoming installment will contain a discussion of Joe's recommendations from the past week.
Factual Opinion: Uncanny X-Men, number 518.
Joe McCullouch: Okay.
FO: What'd you think?
Jog: I haven't read it.
FO: Oh. Well, okay. What about Blackest Night Flash?
Jog: I haven't read it.
FO: Okay. Thor number 604! Keiron Gillen's first issue!
Jog: That's true. I haven't read it.
FO: Siege The Cabal number 1! Finally Siege has begun! Here we go, what'd you think of Siege number one, that's Brian Michael BENDIS and Michael Lark on art, what'd you think?
Jog: That is accurate. I haven't read it.
FO: Ultimate Comics Spider-Man number 5, this is the one where he has pigtails.
Jog: What issue is this, if you count the prior Ultimate Spider-Man series?
FO: Well, you have to count Ultimatum Requiem, there's two issues of that. And the previous series had 133 issues. So that would make this issue 140.
Jog: That's impressive. I haven't read it.
FO: Blackest Night Wonder Woman, this one was pretty controversial.
Jog: Is this the one where the Unknown Soldier comes back?
FO: Yes, he comes back, along with a bunch of military dudes from the graves Arlington National.
Jog: Does anyone recognize him?
FO: No.
Jog: He should be unknown.
FO: No one recognizes him.
Jog: Well, good. I'd heard about that. I haven't read it.
FO: Dark Avengers Annual? Number one? Did you read that? It's the return of Steve Rogers.
Jog: No, I haven't read it.
FO: But it's Chris Bachalo.
Jog: That's true, but I haven't read it.
FO: Well, what about Deadpool number 898? What about that? It's called "Bring Me The Head Of MIckey Dobbs." That's a Sam Peckinpah joke.
Jog: That's good. I have seen Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia. I haven't read this comic though.
FO: Alright goddammit. Marvel Project number 4, you had to have read that.
Jog: Ah, the Golden Age people?
FO: Yeah!
Jog: I haven't read it.
FO: Haunt number 3?
Jog: I haven't read it.
FO: The Boys number 37.
Jog: I haven't--wait, fuck, I have read that.
FO: Okay, that one was pretty strong. I get the feeling you think it needed to be funnier, by that face you're making.
Jog: Well, it's kind of a one joke comic, don't you think? Frenchie is telling his origin story, and while it's a decent enough one joke, with him giving his secret origin--which is completely ridiculous, it makes no sense--and it's based entirely on half-remembered cliches. The purpose, at the end of the issue, is that his origin doesn't make sense, that it doesn't really matter. What matters is the present, what he's doing NOW.
FO: Which is jumping out of the window to go fight more people.
Jog: Yes, and that's part of The Boys theme. Whatever good intentions people might have--people like Mother's Milk, who have good intentions--are getting a bit weary with what Butcher is doing. Frenchie is the opposite side of the coin, becuase he doesn't really think about anything. And if he does think about something, it's nonsensical and ridiculous, because what really matters is what he's doing right now. Which is beating the shit out of people, without a thought in the world. Except for his thoughts about the female, whose origin is in the next issue.
FO: That one will have an Alien reference.
Jog: Yes, it's a poster. I do like it when comics remind me of other things.
FO: I like it too. Especially when it's other genre things.
Jog: I start to cry when I read comics, so I like it when they're more like movies.
FO: That's always been my biggest complaint with comics, that they aren't enough like movies.
Jog: They should call it the director's cut.
FO: They should have commentaries.
Jog: Someone did a commentary on an AIT Planet Lair comic book. Mantooth? Was it Mantooth?
FO: I don't know. Didn't Grant Morrison do that for the sketch variant of Final Crisis?
Jog: He annotated it in the back.
FO: That's not the same as a commentary though. I want one that's more like when VH1 used to put thought bubbles on music videos.
Jog: Yeah. Press the writer's thoughts on with stickers.
FO: Just about anything film does should be imitated in comics as often as possible.
Jog: Absolutely! If they can get these fucking things to move, then we've got it. If they could literally move in front of my eyes, like Tom Hanks in Big.
FO: Not on a youtube type site though, I'm not interested in motion comics. I'm interested in a paper product that has motion.
Jog: Exactly. I could then press my face against it, because it's mysterious.
FO: Like a pop up book, but more kinetic.
Jog: Let's not edit any of that last part.
FO: Nova 32! A Realm of Kings issue!
Jog: Let me check. No, I haven't read it.
FO: X-Force Annual 1.
Jog: I haven't read it.
FO: Neither have I.
Jog: Oh.
FO: It's called Blood Brothers. We could read it.
Jog: No.
FO: Sweet Tooth issue 4?
Jog: I read the first issue of that.
FO: You did? I thought you bailed on that.
Jog: No, I looked at it. It was okay. I liked that his art style fits in with the stereotypical Vertigo color scheme. Like, "Finally! We've got a dude who really writes a lot of comics set in rural-ish areas, something really in tune with nature! We can just go crazy with grass and mud!"
I think Jeff Lemire does offer Vertigo something of a valuable perspective, because--at risk of getting stereotypical--he doesn't have a very Vertigo-poppish thing going on. He's not American, right?
FO: He's Canadian.
Jog: Right. He's got a subdued style, where the natural world is interacting with weird stuff. His art is delicate in a way, with the way things like twigs are arranged juxtaposed with unnatural scenes--I just think it's worthwhile that Vertigo has something with that perspective. Unfortunately, I can't say I've liked any of his work from Vertigo so far. The Nobody was a Vertigo traditional, a re-working of old stories. I thought it wasn't a very deep book, and while it had some nice bits with the art and some nice passages, a lot of it was too on the nose for me. Sweet Tooth didn't really capture my attention either.
FO: I've read the first three issues. I'd guess my complaint is that too little happens in it. I realize that's a shallow complaint a lot of people have, the "decompression" aspect, that a minute is expanded to an entire comic. With Sweet Tooth, it struck me as something that could only work in a collected format, it just has so little occurring that it's almost intolerable in serialized chunks. But maybe it's the character's eyes that just kill me. Something about them, the way there's so plaintive and open, it's just too dopey. I'd like to hit him.
Jog: Here's something. I read the first issue of Blackest Night, and that's as far as I read on that. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that, because you're following it, and I'm not. Because...it's funny. With Blackest Night, it's almost like The Boys, in a very basic way. You've got the dead super-hero characters, coming back as these weird debauched versions of themselves, doing nothing but harming the present.
It's another in a line of DC events that's About Other DC Events, which is part of the weird thing about super-hero comics. They run so much on verisimilitude, with these focusing events that pull everyone's attention into the ongoing universe. All the money is made from that attention, with things like Siege coming up, Blackest Night right now, etc, etc. There's this desire for the reader to "peek" into the universe, to see what's going on, but at the same time, you can't really live in that universe. It's all these characters going through these horrible trials. Don't you think that the DC Universe would be an absolute hell to live in?
FO: Sure. Anytime that they try to take a step back and look at those places in any manner of impact-on-life, the problem becomes that the only thing that matters in those stories is the super-heroes. It's a constant hell for everybody. In the case of something as action-heavy as Sinestro Corps, the previous Green Lantern thing, it worked because there was a huge base of cannon fodder to draw on, but it was cannon fodder with personalities, histories. In that case, you have a group of space marines with names, it can matter when they die, when they fail. Marvel kills nameless children, and it can only work as an ideal. It's a hell to live there, but there's only non-super hero people "living" there when it's necessary to get some bodies on the floor. There's an implication that humanity matters within these stories, but you only see them in a body count, you only hear them mentioned in speeches.
Jog: That's part of the problem, in that the contemporary world of super-hero comics attempts to establish that it's a world that can be lived in. It's a world that goes on, but it constantly diminishes the human who isn't a godlike being, and there's a lot of existential troubles in that. Think about Final Crisis, but not as a metaphor, or even as a literary unit, because the shared universe has diminished the literary quality in these things. They rely so much on a continuing world. Just think, "what did Final Crisis do?" It changed the whole world, kind of brought the world back in the end, and I imagine you could see that one of the problems with it is that it wasn't even clear what it did to the world in the end. If you look at the Joe Casey book Dance, you can see that one thing it did was that Japan got totally fucking flattened.
FO: Otherwise, it's got non-existent results. Remember those moments in Final Crisis where they would show what happened? Run, or whatever it was called, with the civilians living under ground, hiding from everybody, hiding from Wonder Woman's dog armies. You've never heard about that since, and yet it was depicted as a hell on earth, an apocalyptic portrayal straight out of Kirby's 4th World.
Jog: Because it's a citation, it's a citation of an earlier work. But as it does that, the structure of contemporary super-hero comics demands it be something that continues, something that goes on past Morrison or Johns, something that continues on its own. You're being pulled in, but you have to stand back a bit, because the true experience of what's being depicted is completely horrible for any person.
FO: Which leads you to that lack of acknowledgement for whatever it was that happened in the series, a problem that Marvel doesn't seem to be facing, because Marvel acknowledges the stories they've previously told. This led to that, whereas Final Crisis was massive, unending horror, cities and lives uprooted and destroyed, and no real line of that has continued. Superman, flying past annihilation to pick up Batman's dead body--and he's completely surrounded by a flaming hell, a city destroyed.
Jog: Let's not misinterpret things. I do think that something like Final Crisis is a "better" comic than something like Secret Invasion. But is it a better super-hero comic, in the way that super-hero comics are expected to behave? It would seem that Marvel has the verisimilitude going much stronger, they keep people hooked, they make more money, they behave the way people prefer these stories to behave. I think Grant Morrison is aware of this, because when you look at something like the end of JLA--everyone becomes a super-hero, for a little while. At the end of X-Men, humanity is evolving into mutants. At the end of Grant Morrison's timeline, everybody gets to be a super-hero, because I think he recognizes that these stories diminish the human element, and in order to respond to that, we all have to become something godlike.
Which doesn't answer to Blackest Night, where even being a super-hero doesn't change that everything would be a fucking hell to live through.
FO: Why did you read Blackest Night?
Jog: I just figured I should look at it. I may not have read a lot of super-hero comics this week, but I do try and keep up with what's "going on" in super-hero comics. I hear people say "ahh, Geoff Johns, he ain't that bad!" I see super-heroes coming in and doing gory things, and I like gory things. Hell, I love expressions of violence in super-hero comics, so sure, I'll check it out. And I guess it's alright? The thing is...they're always talking about stuff, like there's this idea that they have to fill people in with "what's going on" in the DC universe, and there's lots and lots of discussing the sadness of the past. It's all so downbeat. And that's alright, the dead are gonna rise, and that's the dominant motif of the story. I just didn't feel like continuing on with it, it didn't grab me in that way.
FO: You want to talk about something that excites you a bit more than this stuff?
Jog: Everything excites me.
FO: I'll take that as a yes.
-to be continued
Just kiss him already you fool!
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.07 at 07:07
I don't want to sound all like a pretentious jerk guy, but I kinda think you missed the point of Sweet Tooth. It's slow because that's how Lemire writes - his work is full of open, empty moments to reflect what it's like being out in the country by yourself.
I dunno, it's a series I wanted very badly not to like because I don't want to buy serialized floppies anymore. But I like it, so now I'm screwed.
Posted by: Kenny Cather | 2009.12.07 at 08:08
Wow, you guys really hit the point on the head with superhero comics. The reason why I only like reading superhero comics like Millar or Loeb's Hulk (or Silver Age stuff) is because it's just big, loud, empty action with no concern with the world around it. There's no concern for continuity or how this action affects that action - it's just punch, punch, explode, punch some more. Because you guys are right, the normal people living in these worlds don't matter - their lives would be such Hell the only escape would be suicide.
I had the same thought watching Transformers 2 - how could anyone live in this world? If you knew at any second giant robots from space could crush your entire city, how would that affect your religion, your political views, your views on having kids, etc?
I think the only guy who has ever explored this has been Alan Moore. In Miracleman, he has the big blow-off fight between Miracleman and the big bad guy and the world literally turns into Hell. And the result is the whole world actually does change and Miracleman becomes God. And then Gaiman takes over and explores why a human being can't be God....
The point is, that's the only book that's actually looked at this stuff in a real context, which is why I have such a hard time taking Morrison seriously. All Morrison's work reads like Millar if Millar had his head up his ass. As it is, Millar is a carny who knows he's a carny, but Morrison strikes me as a carny who thinks he's this awesome literary giant. (I dunno, this whole anti-Morrison screed may just be me on a soapbox and a cardboard sign yelling, "Wake up! The world already ended and Millar knows this!" In fact, I'm sure of it. Whatever, I'm an idiot....)
Posted by: Kenny Cather | 2009.12.07 at 08:42
I like how this relates to the new Splash page from Nevett and Callahan: http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2009/12/splash-page-are-mainstream-comics.html
There's just this air of "Okay... now why should I care?" about comics lately.
Posted by: david brothers | 2009.12.07 at 11:34
One of the thing that baffled / baffles me about Final Crisis was that they didn't end the book with some kind of magic reset button, all that shit where Darkseid conquered the Earth is still "real" as far as the everyday denizens of the DC Earth are concerned. Which would, as everyone has said, really fuck with the world. Look at how weird the world got after one successful terrorist attack on the United States: just imagine what our world would be like if we had been conquered by an omnipotent alien fascist who turned the planet into a concentration camp for a couple months.
At least Starlin had the good sense to turn back the clock at the end of the Infinity Gauntlet, because as malleable as the Marvel Universe is, having everyone on the face of the planet remember the time when half the population disappeared and the Earth almost fell into the sun before it was conquered by Annihilus would kind of fuck with society.
Posted by: Tim O'Neil | 2009.12.07 at 11:54
Yeah, but this Tucker/Jog BS doesn't even contain any graphs. Slackers.
Posted by: TimCallahan | 2009.12.07 at 12:13
Kenny: IF Millar had his head up his ass? I don't think there's an "if" there. Oh, I'm so funny.
David: Superhero comics, not just plain old "comics"! You should be more specific. There's plenty to care about with other stuff, isn't there? Pluto! Parker! Polyp! Tons of great stuff out there, so just because the X-Men and Green Lantern suck, don't throw the whole medium under the bus!
Posted by: Matthew J. Brady | 2009.12.07 at 12:55
Polyp? We aren't talking medical science here, Brady! We're talking about tights and fights! What kinda comic doesn't even have any tig ol bitties and spandex in it? Not one I wanna read!
2010 is starting off right with Afrodisiac, though. That's a goodun.
Posted by: david brothers | 2009.12.07 at 13:00
The Comics As Movies bit was Gold, I say!
I think I missed the point of "the super hero comics would be better if they acknowledged the ordinary people in the world" bit. I don't wish to sound harsh but someone (just as an example)who can't even rise to the daunting challenge of writing about someone who gets big and green and hits things when angered, that someone is someone I don't think is going to reveal any raw human truths by examining the plight of normals in a world gone super.
I missed the point again didn't I? And in public yet. Sigh.
Also: Final Crisis Roolz! Secret Invasion droolz! It's true because it rhymes!
Posted by: John K(UK) | 2009.12.07 at 15:34
Millar has his head up his ass. He's just not as good as Morrison.
Morrison, on the other hand, is a total loon who thinks he once healed his cat with a magic spell.
If you've ever read a Morrison interview, or the blog entries he used to have up at his web site... he really believes all the weird stuff he says about everybody becoming god-like beings some day and using superheroes for sympathetic magic rituals and crap like that.
He thinks he has talked to Superman (the fictional character) before using his magic powers.
It's like he read The Illuminatus Trilogy by Shea and Wilson and decided to take it seriously and turn it into his own personal religion. Which explains The Invisibles and a lot of other stuff he has done where he basically ripped off the ending from Illuminatus!, only with superheroes instead of pagans who use drugs.
Morrison really believes that there will be some kind of apocalypse that will turn us into god-like energy beings like you might see in an old Star Trek episode.
Final Crisis is basically where his love for old Jack Kirby comics and his crazy personal religion intersect. He didn't care about what it would do to the ongoing shared universe just as long as he got to see some of his pet obsessions get published.
Friends don't let friends support the career of a crazy guy who thinks he's a wizard.
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.07 at 15:41
Brian T: And that's why Grant Morrison writes crackerjack comics. And Wizards? Alan Moore. Thinking you're a wizard works out okay sometimes.
Generally though isn't Mark Millar obsolete now. Big dumb comics? Jason Aaron does them with aplomb. Go Jason Aaron!
Posted by: John K(UK) | 2009.12.07 at 15:56
OK, so Millar's ass? His head is squarely up it. I'm not denying that, I just enjoy his superhero comics because it's not his religion on paper, it's dinosaur Venom, it's blind Hawkeye and Wolverine in the Spider-Buggy. Maybe this makes me a bad person?
But when I said Morrison has his head up his ass - Brian T gets it exactly. Morrison actually believes all this goofy stuff. And yep, he stole it from the Illuminatus Trilogy. Millar knows his stuff is some basically pro-wrestling, but it's his job to hype it like Jim Ross. Morrison thinks his pro-wrestling stuff is actually the Bible and Koran rolled up in an I Ching burrito with Torah sauce drizzled on top. I like my pro-wrestling hype-men more Jim Ross and less Jim Jones.
Posted by: Kenny Cather | 2009.12.07 at 18:12
And now Kenny and Brian kiss. KISS HIM! KISS HIM OR REGRET IT FOREVER!
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.07 at 18:36
As someone who likes Mr. Bungle, I have to say that I'll take the genius ravings of an utter lunatic over a bunch of generic hoo-ha that recognizes what it is.
I like Millar too, though.
Posted by: Chris Jones | 2009.12.08 at 00:48
Wow... It really shows that I needed to read over my post one more time before I submitted it. Sorry about the redundant parts.
Anyway, on to new stuff...
Alan Moore, oddly enough, manages to seem like a pretty sensible guy when he isn't writing porn. Even though he'll freely admit that he worships an ancient Roman sock puppet.
Moore gets the difference between reality and fiction. Morrison doesn't seem capable of making those types of distinctions.
Moore is mildly eccentric in a way that makes him seem interesting, and he's incredibly well read.
Morrison... is a nutcase who wants people to think he's really clever and postmodern. And he never shuts up about how brilliant he is. Even though all he really ever does is try to pass off Robert Anton Wilson's ideas as his own and hope American comic book fans don't notice.
By contrast, Moore is awfully humble considering all the cool stuff he has written. And he actually has an original idea once in a while.
I know which wizard I prefer.
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.08 at 03:28
Robert Anton Wilson wrote Batman? I really want that comic...
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.08 at 08:54
You know, many celebrities have a public persona that is much different than how they really are, even obscure pseudo-celebrities. I don't know why you believe that Grant Morrison 100% believes everything he says... axe to grind?
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 10:04
Steve Ditko wants you to die alone and penniless, the dude still drew some awesome Mr. A comics. Bowie broke up the Spiders from Mars because he thought Scientologists and dark witches were trying to kill him. Peckinpah drank himself to death. Creative people are fucked up and that has dick to do with their work, Brian. You wanna complain about the writing, do it, don't couch it in your "oh he's crazy" bullshit.
Posted by: Sean Witzke | 2009.12.08 at 12:32
Eh, I just think the Morrison wizard stuff is funny; it doesn't really impact the comics all that much (although I haven't read much of the Invisibles), and his stuff is probably better if you just ignore his hype. What he is is a damn good storyteller, pulling off hilarious dialogue, great action, and crazy concepts; when he's doing superheroes well, it makes you realize how badly most everybody else does it. It helps when he has a good artist, but even the badly-illustrated stuff has pretty good content underneath the ugliness. I'll be rereading Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Seven Soldiers, All-Star Superman, New X-Men, and so on for years to come, and that's not even counting the non-superhero stuff like WE3 or, I dunno, The Filth. He's awesome and always interesting, which is more than I can say for Millar, that's for sure.
Posted by: Matthew J. Brady | 2009.12.08 at 12:33
Also, Alan Moore says he worships a Roman sock puppet as a commentary on religion.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 12:36
I think Morrison's writing totally sucks.
I thought that before I found out that he spends his spare time making superhero Tarot decks and doing things like talking like a Bizarro for a month or dropping acid before writing an issue of Animal Man.
Moore, a real writer, doesn't need to do weird "method acting" stuff to come up with scripts for superhero comics.
The screwed up stuff Morrison does in real life (such as drunk dialing Mark Millar so they can talk about the X-Men and then publish a transcription of the conversation) just makes him seem like a bigger hack than I thought he was already.
I know some people think criticizing Morrison is like peeing in church... but seriously. Dude. Get over yourself, Witzke.
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.08 at 12:49
Hey, it's like a regular Comics of the Weak...BUT ON ACID!
Posted by: seth hurley | 2009.12.08 at 12:52
How about Moore vs Morrison being the most boring fucking thing you can talk about, and you going about it in such a fantastic manner? Wah wah I don't like Morrison and I'm the only one. You and half of DC's fanbase, shithead. No one cares, you can make the point again now. Maybe this time you can mention some other thing Morrison does that's not his writing and then say "Alan Moore would never do that".
Posted by: Sean Witzke | 2009.12.08 at 12:54
I dunno, Sean -- once, I walked past Grant Morrison in the Virgin Megastore on Buchanan Street, and I can't be sure, but I think he was PLAYING AIR GUITAR at his mildly disinterested wife. OH THE CRAZINESS!!!!
Say what you will about Glycon, but I'm pretty sure that Alan Moore would never do something like that. He'd probably play air dulcimer or something instead.
All of this is totally relevant!!
Posted by: David Allison | 2009.12.08 at 13:17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOpx61okWTk
Posted by: Chris Jones | 2009.12.08 at 13:18
The best story Morrison ever wrote, Flex Mentallo, is probably his least-read work. There's great beauty in that.
Posted by: Jim Kingman | 2009.12.08 at 13:31
Instead Brian, Moore's gotta do some enchanting in his magic cave. Dude is fucking secretly Dallben the wizard, and we're all Taran.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 13:38
I'll try again, even though Witzke has resorted to name calling like he's six.
When Morrison isn't ripping off Robert Anton Wilson, he steals a lot from stuff Jack Kirby and Chris Claremont wrote back in the Seventies.
The dude has never had an original thought in his life.
Chances are fair that everything you liked about his JLA run came either from The Illuminati Trilogy or old X-Men comics.
The Invisibles? That's just The Illuminati Trilogy with some Michael Moorcock thrown in for flavor. It probably seems more clever if you've never read any Wilson or any of Moorcock's Jerry Cornelius books.
New X-Men? "Reimagining" old Claremont ideas with some Illuminati Trilogy thrown in because that's Morrison thing for some reason
Seven Soldiers? That's The Illuminati Trilogy crossed with Jack Kirby. He even stole names for characters from Shea and Wilson.
You can tell which parts Morrison wrote in 52 because they're the ones based on scenes from The Illuminati Trilogy. I was able to correctly predict things that happened in 52 just because I've read those books too.
Final Crisis? Again, it's Jack Kirby crossed with stuff from The Illuminati Trilogy that he hadn't used for Seven Soldiers.
It's not hard to seem like a genius when other people have already done all the heavy lifting for you.
Just look at Geoff Johns. He somehow turned ripping off Roy Thomas and Marv Wolfman into a career. He broadened his horizons a little and started stealing from Alan Moore too. But he hasn't done anything with any real merit since Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. Which is the last time he ever tried to come up with his own ideas.
Morrison is creatively bankrupt. Trying to claim that his detractors just aren't smart or cool enough (or European enough, in some cases) to get him doesn't change that.
Also, Witzke... Seriously, how old are you? Twelve?
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.08 at 13:45
I read an interview in Wizard where Johns and Morrison kept talkin about how much they love each other's work
anyways in it Morrison says that Flex Mentallo sold horribly and he actually has CASES of it at home
Posted by: Nathan | 2009.12.08 at 13:47
Sampling and remixing ideas are a mainstay in art.
especially in a genre that builds from previous creator's ideas. That's not exactly stealing, that's following editorial edict.
When I was younger, I thought Kirby was clunky & the first time I read Wilson I thought it was dull.
Posted by: seth hurley | 2009.12.08 at 13:58
Brian: Beyond what Seth just said, I think it's also that people are tired of others trying to make them feel bad about what authors they like, etc.
Although the irony of that sentiment on this blog is hilarious.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 14:09
Simply put, I like Led Zepplin guitar riffs better in Beastie Boys songs.
other people like Howlin' Wolf songs more when Led Zepplin does them.
merely listing an artist's influences & calling them a thief doesn't make people enjoy the originals any more.
it makes you into a pedant.
Posted by: seth hurley | 2009.12.08 at 14:12
now who wants to see my Kirby-esque drawing of Jog & Tucker bumping dicks?
Posted by: seth hurley | 2009.12.08 at 14:14
Also Morrison has never tried to hide this stuff. Look at the Invisibles. Gideon Stargrave is pretty much Grant Morrison-as-Jerry Cornelius.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 14:15
Also, Morrison has never tried to hide these things you're complaining about, Brian. He's always been pretty open about the fact that, say, Gideon Stargrave is just his Jerry Cornelius fantasies put to paper.
I agree that people shouldn't act like his shit don't stink, but that kind of fawning is sadly not unique to any creative personality.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 14:19
I am twelve years old and I want to see Seth's drawings of said dick bumbping.
Posted by: Sean Witzke | 2009.12.08 at 14:33
I read a book once by Robert Anton Wilson, did you hear? It is a book that is better than Grant Morrison's books. I can prove it to you with math, see? VALIDATE ME BECAUSE I AM SMARTER THAN GRANT MORRISON BUT NOT ALAN MOORE.
I sometimes dream of Alan Moore inside me. His dick is hairy. (that last bit was me talking)
Posted by: Sean Witzke | 2009.12.08 at 14:37
Me too. Make sure you detail the veins right.
I also regret this silly hissy fit bitchslap fight overshadowing people wanking Tucker and Jog off about what a great post this was, since it really was a great post. Also I regret my browser crashing leading me to think I hadn't posted before.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.08 at 14:41
The Illuminatus! Trilogy struck me as being just an endless permutations of 'have you ever gone to the post office? On WEED!?' and is about as relevant to today as The Invisibles will be to about five or ten years from now.
Although I think The Invisibles was a much better story overall.
Posted by: one zen bullet | 2009.12.08 at 15:06
I like that Grant Morrison fella. He's pretty good most of the time and sometimes he's really very good indeed. But I like Alan Moore the bestest of all. Or I did, now I know he has a hairy dick I'm having reservations. I know, I know, the furriness of a man's tinklestick has no relevance to the worth of his Art. Call me shallow, I guess.
I like how the Mark Millar thing goes:
Mark Millar Hataz: His Comics Are Stupid.
Mark Millar Fanz: His Comics Are Stupid.
And yet still we fight! Brothers and Sisters can't you see!? You bake The Cake of Life in the oven of Love - not Hate!
I'm a Hata myself (or at least a Totally Disinterested).
Pretty crazy this week, huh. Bit of a free for all. Blimey O'Reilly, it certainly cleared my sinuses.
Posted by: John K(UK) | 2009.12.08 at 15:11
"I was able to correctly predict things that happened in 52 just because I've read those books too."
Oh ho ho
What's going to happen in Batman then? I'd love to be saved arsing about reading more 2nd rate RAW by a big brave lad who's not afraid to wee in the aisles.
For a book you refer to a lot The Illuminatus Trilogy sure has a different name. And is not very good, from really any literary standpoint.
...yeah, this was a really good post. Mr. J-Mac, Mr TS; respect.
Posted by: Duncan | 2009.12.08 at 18:50
This comments section has too much hate and not enough dude on dude make-outs. That makes Alan Moore cry. Cry tears of blackest night and secrets...
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.08 at 20:52
http://guysgocrazyblog.com/i/2008/05/148_guys_go_crazy_gay_orgy.jpg
Posted by: Tim O'Neil | 2009.12.08 at 21:47
I never said The Illuminatus Trilogy was any good. if anything, that just makes it worse that Morrison has spent half his career recycling whole scenes from it for bad superhero stories.
And I'd rather be a pedant than some dumb ass doing a bad Tucker Stone impression.
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.08 at 22:23
"I read an interview in Wizard where Johns and Morrison kept talkin about how much they love each other's work..."
Grant Morrison: Yeah, sometimes I get lazy and just steal the plot from an old comic I liked and update the pop culture references.
Geoff Johns: Me too! That's what I did for half my Titans run!
GM: Writing is hard, you know? It's so much easier to just make a lot of references to cool old stuff and wait for the fanboys to love you because they like those comics too.
GJ: Tell me about it. I figured that out while writing JSA. That's all I've been doing since about 2003.
GM: What was that waiter's name?
Both: JEAN-LUC!!!
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.08 at 22:29
If you think the impression is bad you should try reading the original.
Posted by: seth hurley | 2009.12.08 at 22:49
" It's a world that goes on, but it constantly diminishes the human who isn't a godlike being, and there's a lot of existential troubles in that."
That's not a problem with contemporary super-hero comics. That's the genre. And I don't think it's an existential problem so much as a theological one. That is, the difficulty isn't that it diminishes human beings, but that it diminishes god.
Posted by: NoahB | 2009.12.08 at 22:51
i'm all pissed off and shit rrr i'm on a blog and cool
Posted by: Chris Jones | 2009.12.08 at 22:55
@O'Neal: I'm sorry, but those don't look like comics geeks at all. Not even scrawny ones like Tucker. Now Alan Moore owns your soul. Also Brian's. But he'll be trading Brian's soul to Grant Morrison for a case of Scotch and a purple druid robe. IRONY!
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.08 at 23:40
"If you think the impression is bad you should try reading the original."
I apologize. I was alluding to Sean Witzke.
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.09 at 00:53
Brian T is right about everything. Damn it.
Posted by: TimCallahan | 2009.12.09 at 05:57
Brian, mate, if this whole Illuminati/Illuminatus thing is a joke, I admire your commitment if not your punchlines. Though, yes, the whole "I could predict parts of 52" thing was pretty good.
Seriously, I feel like I'm in The Prestige right now, and I'm staring at some old codger, and some other old codger's all like "Don't you see? His whole life is the act!"
If you're for real -- eh, who can be bothered defending Grant Morrison on the Internet anymore? Especially when this little corner of the web is rarely shy about slagging off his lesser efforts. For, you know, better reasons normally.
So... did someone call for dude-on-dude makeouts?
I'm game! Tucker's a cutey, but I think he's too busy chatting up Jog to pay any attention to a schlub like me. Still, when the results are as good as this post, I won't complain too much.
Well, in public at least.
I've also got a longstanding (!) man-crush on Duncan, and I'd pay good money to have Sean talk me off, but...
Yeah, I'll get my coat now.
Sorry.
Posted by: David Allison | 2009.12.09 at 07:51
Morrison has always run hot and cold with me. The Invisibles is absolute shit, and Kill Your Boyfriend is possibly the single worst comic book I've ever read in my life. But Seaguy is wonderful, and The Filth is really great, and All-Star Superman is probably the best Superman story to come out in decades. In the middle you have stuff like Seven Soldiers, which has some good parts and some really weak parts and a pretty lame ending, and Doom Patrol, which has some theoretically interesting stories going on bogged down by some really terrible dialogue and writing. And then you have everything he's been doing recently, which is just mediocre page-filler stuff.
Morrison's public persona is just embarrassing. I tend to avoid interviews with him these days.
Posted by: moose n squirrel | 2009.12.09 at 09:41
Brian T is correct.
Morrison does steal every idea of his from the Illuminatus Trilogy! I know you slobbering fanboys want to deny it, but it's true! Face it!
But that's only skimming the plagiarism surface!
Did you people know that Alan Moore steals all of his ideas from the novel Superfolks? Yes, he does!
And the Bible! Did you know every idea in the Bible was stolen from Gilgamesh? Yeah, sad, isn't it?
But it doesn't even end there! What about Gilgamesh? You think that was original? No way! Every idea in it was stolen from the works of the 'Caveman Who Invented Fiction'. Every idea!!!
And do you know where the 'Caveman Who Invented Fiction' got all his 'ideas'? Do you? Do You!!!? I'll tell you. He stole them all from the 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction'!! Every *Damn* One of Them!! Can you Believe that?!! The Fucker!
This is all shocking, I know. I was shocked the first time I learned about it. It probably will make you despair about the entire concept of 'Creativity'.
Anyhow, I hope some day the complete works of the 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction' will be translated from their native dinosaurese into humanese so all these fanboys that worship and slobber over overrated talentedless hacks like Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Leo Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Homer, and the 'Caveman Who Invented Fiction' can finally understand how totally misguided they were. And then when they reach true enlightenment then they can start worshipping and slobbering over the only artist that this pitiful planet of ours has ever produced that was worth a damn!
Namely, The 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction'.
Amen!
And before someone calls me out on it, yes, I did in fact steal all of the text from this post from the 'Dinosaur Who Invented Fiction' masterpiece epic poem, 'Dino-Might! Dino-Night!'.
I have no shame.
Arthur "Sue me" Spitzer
Posted by: Arthur Spitzer | 2009.12.09 at 19:27
Arthur - Very, very nice.
It gives me a blissful, happy, joy-to-the-world feeling in the pit of my stomach that this guy is arguing that Grant Morrison can't tell fiction from reality and that his WHOLE ARGUMENT is "I can't tell fiction from reality."
Posted by: MarkAndrew | 2009.12.10 at 09:59
Let me guess. You're all East Coast hipsters, right?
"As a hipster, I really hate it when people are serious about their religious beliefs. But I still like Morrison. So, it will make me feel better if I live in denial and pretend like all the crazy stuff Morrison says constantly on his web site and in interviews is just an elaborate act.
"And, because I'm a massive douchebag in an ironic T-shirt, I'm going to pretend like he doesn't use those same goofy ideas in practically everything he writes. Even though Warren Ellis and anybody else with any sense have already noticed that he keeps slipping stuff from The Invisibles (which was based on his funky beliefs) into his mainstream superhero work. Now let me get back to quoting Patton Oswalt on message boards and pretending that I can relate to gangsta rap."
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.10 at 12:51
I'm a Midwest hipster (although one who isn't very fashionable, yet still probably quite douchebaggy), so I think I've just ruined your theory.
Posted by: Matthew J. Brady | 2009.12.10 at 13:03
"Now let me get back to quoting Patton Oswalt on message boards and pretending that I can relate to gangsta rap."
Is this still part of being a hipster?
Posted by: arch 14 | 2009.12.10 at 13:06
West Coast hipster, representing! And I don't do either of those things, I talk about The Hold Steady and Goya paintings.
Posted by: Chris Jones | 2009.12.10 at 13:39
East Coast Hipster?
*blink blink*
Brian T you're actually Tucker just fucking with us aren't you? Seriously this is like when he does one of those style parody review columns now...
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.10 at 14:49
Over here the East Coast conjures up images of candyfloss in the rain and watching donkeys sadly amble about beaches sparsely furnished with luridly pink people. That's not the same thing is it? Or is it?
"...Warren Ellis and anybody else with any sense have already noticed that he keeps slipping stuff from The Invisibles (which was based on his funky beliefs) into his mainstream superhero work."
Even the alleged clueless buffoon Grant Morrison has noticed this and mentioned it several times in interviews; how his JLA stuff acts as a mainstream approach to the same business in The Invisibles. It's almost as if he's self-aware or something! Good on Warren Ellis for calling him out though! Good on Warren Ellis! "In the future cars will not have wheels! And be a bit faster!", the smoking sweary lady stated flatly. Good on him!
Dammit, it was Tucker Stone all along wasn't it. Choke! Sob!
Posted by: John K(UK) | 2009.12.10 at 15:51
Actually, I'm a no-coast Jew, and I'm mostly responding to your condescending fakeposting, SIRRAH.
Posted by: Lugh | 2009.12.10 at 20:19
"You are not agreeing with me so you must be part of this group of people I have identified that I do not like"
Internet sigh.
Posted by: Sads | 2009.12.10 at 20:32
It's a courtesy to attribute the person you are quoting.
Posted by: seth hurley | 2009.12.10 at 22:17
/jizz
Posted by: Sean Witzke | 2009.12.10 at 22:34
I didn't call Morrison a clueless buffoon. I called him an overrated hack. Who thinks he can do magic.
There's no need to infer things that aren't there.
Yes, I'm a real person. No, I'm not Tucker.
I'm totally serious. So, I'd appreciate it if you stopped coming up with weird, douchey hipster-y theories about what my true motives are.
And if you think hipsters don't still quote Patton Oswalt, you clearly don't spend enough time checking out the Onion A.V. Club.
Posted by: Brian T. | 2009.12.11 at 00:39
wait so we're the hipsters and you're telling us to read the AV Club?
Posted by: Sean Witzke | 2009.12.11 at 01:01
Tucker Stone isn't a real person?
I KNEW IT!
He's a sex-bot Nina built isn't he?
Posted by: LurkerWithout | 2009.12.11 at 02:26
Aaaaaaand ... that's a wrap. Good comments section, everybody!
http://lh3.google.com/lisa.onizuka/R9vwdFsPcKI/AAAAAAAAPdY/TLfA_QdWHyk/tiresome.jpg
Posted by: Tim O'Neil | 2009.12.11 at 15:54
I'd say Serial Experiment Lain is far superior to anything ever done by Morrison in its treatment of very similar subjects. Anyone else see the similarities?
Posted by: AComment | 2009.12.12 at 09:52
I still enjoy Morrison comics more than Lain (it's not exactly a fun series). But Lain seems both more mature in dealing with philosophical issues and more modern - Morrison sometimes feels like he's overly tied to the counter-culture of the 60ies and 70ies. That's a long time ago.
If Morrison did "channel-surfing" in 2008 Lain did the Internet in 1998.
Yeah, not a totally fair comparison perhaps, but I think Morrison needs to evolve (like in JLA: World War III!) if he’s to stay artistically relevant. He should, I don’t know, update his thematic sources? Something like that?
Posted by: AComment | 2009.12.12 at 10:06
Wow, the Acomment guy just TOTALLY LOST ME. Totally.
Posted by: plok | 2009.12.13 at 03:56
For a minute I thought he said he enjoyed Morrison comics more when they were in Latin.
Well, I do too...but then that's what makes me a hipster I guess.
Posted by: plok | 2009.12.13 at 10:04